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Dinah,
I am very curious about your practice since it seems to be made up of people who don't need to see a shrink (you know many families in which adult children shun their parents but it is not about abuse or neglect--assuming you were referring to your practice and not your circle of friends).
I won't go into my own story because it is very painful and not something I like to talk about outside of therapy and even there,not so much. I divorced my family of origin and it did have to do with abuse and neglect.
I grew up the child of a narcissistic mother, and all that entails. It left a huge negative impact on me and has been the reason that I have spent a fair amount of time in therapy. Though I know she will never change, or acknowledge her behavior, I now have a relationship with her on my terms, and have spent a lot of time thinking about and implementing boundaries with her.
I could write a book about my experiences, but will leave it at that.
I can see why people divorce their families, even "healthy" adult families.
I, too, have seen a number of such patients, but do not have exact figures. One factor that has has changed over the last 30 years is that there are many more parents with adult children who are in new relationships, and that might disturb the children.
1st Anon, there are many people who can profit from seeing a psychiatrist but who do not come from abuse or neglect, and it is equally true that there are far more people who have suffered abuse than is generally recognized.
I am first anon. Thank you, Jesse. I was being facetious. I am not a total fool. Here is what disturbs me: there are two very different populations of adult children who "shun" their parents. The first reminds me of people who thought nothing of getting a divorce because they had grown apart or were not "fulfilled" in their marriage. A lot of those people look back twenty years later and they are still not fulfilled , some regret the divorce as it didn'T solve their problems and actually, the spouse was not so bad after all. Another subset if peoPle left abusive spouses, which took great courage. They had to start a new life with few resources. I don't think it would be accurate tO say the shunned their ex mate so much as reclaimed a life. As an adult child , I had to make a new life for myself. I did not shun my parents. Biologically, I had parents. For all other purposes, I never did. My parents were not very critical of me. They just left me to the wolves. I am okay with them facing down their Own wolves. If that sounds harsh, well so be it. And once again for Jesse, you are not speaking to an uneducated audience.
I "separated" from my parents once...it only lasted about two years. We currently have a tenuous relationship, although I would probably be in a healthier, happier place if I were to divorce them. However, I know that when we were previously separated, my mother would tell people she had no idea why. She would tell of all the good things in my childhood (and there truly were plenty of those). But she would leave out all the details about the long-standing abuse. My childhood was about appearances...everything had to appear perfect to people outside of the home but it was a far cry from perfect. Even people within our extended family had no idea of the physical, verbal and sexual abuse that went on in our home. My mother still lives in that fantasy where she pretends to others that our family was great.
I guess my point is that just because your patients tell you that their family life was normal and great, doesn't make it true! My mom is very convincing. No one suspects the levels of depravity and abuse that occurred in our home.
Yes I too see an increasing number of those who have set boundaries with their parents and siblings, and some who have divorced their parents. I see this on a personal level with friends and acquaintances. The common denominator seems to be unmet needs as well as parental behavior that was "unintentional abuse". Quite often this seems to happen with adult children of alcoholic parents, once this cycle begins, it snowballs out of control and all that is left is for the child to abandon the unhealthy relationship or establish boundaries (which is often a "good thing". Adult children can still honor their parents at a distance if need be). Of course every situation is different, yet this post is timely since we just had this discussion about an instance happened to a close friend.
Moody Mommy, I do know there are two sides to every story. And I also know that some of these adult children tell their parents why they are estranging themselves and the parents don't hear, or don't want to change their lives to please their children, or just don't get it. Some seem to genuinely not know why the sudden change.
Please note that the article is about adults who get along well with their parents then have an abrupt shift. It's not about people who have been abused and have always had a difficult relationship. And some parents are very demanding or difficult to be with or send the message that nothing is ever enough: the adult child really does have to set some limits or be eaten alive. But limits are not total (or near-total) estrangement. Many of these stories do seem to occur in families where there has been a divorce, though sometimes in the distant past, and not 100%.
I actually have not seen that people who were abused as children are more likely to estrange themselves from their parents for past sins. The anger may linger, but as adults, they sometimes find some way to have some type of reasonable relationship. In a case where a child has been physically and sexually abused by their parents, divorce is perfectly understandable.
The parents don't always say the family life was normal and great years ago, but they do long for relationship they once had with their adult children, some of whom have gone from being very devoted to being seemingly callous.
Mostly I'm commenting that I see this a lot, and that I wonder what the other person would say.
Thinking of the question Dinah posed, is there an increase of adult children who divorce their parents over what existed in the past? And we can only examine the recent past, the last several decades, unless their is some way to get further data. In addition to the change in marital divorce (it can be very disturbing to adult children that their parents divorce, have affairs, etc.) another factor could be how common it is now that children and parents live far apart. They see each other infrequently yet might have great expectations of what is owed from one to the other.
A third factor could be changes in society. There could be less acceptance by children that they will stay loyal to, and provide for, their parents.
So I am thinking along the line of large societal forces. Children are less dependent on their parents than they were in the past, traditional duties less binding.
Dinah,
I'm not in your target audience here, but I'd still like to address one of the points you made:
"The parent – usually, but not always, the mother – feels she’s made sacrifices for her child and has done an adequate (if not superb) job of parenting [..]"
"Sacrifice" is a very heavy word, that carries with it a lot of implications. Imagine that your husband had to choose between his carrier or yours? How would you feel if he made that 'sacrifice' for you - even if, years down the road, he'd never mentioned it? You'd owe him big.
If you ask me (and you didn't, I know), then today we live in a me-centered culture. There is great emphasis on feeling good, and this involves purging ourselves of anything that make us feel bad, including relationships.
Now, sacrifices are like too expensive gifts - you can never quite repay them, no matter what you do. Regardless of how pure the intentions of the giver were, the receiver will always be put on the spot, and forever be reminded of his or her dilemma. In every interaction between parent and child, the child is reminded just how much the parent had to give up. In a culture where feeling bad is BAD, what is the obvious solution?
Maybe your clients need to stop defining themselves as superparents who made great sacrifices for the kids, and find a different yardstick? Oh, and realize that when it comes to kids, there are no sacrifices - only choices.
Beginning with when you choose to get pregnant.
Your choices, every step of the way.
My parents were physically and verbally abusive and Dad was an alcoholic, but I did not "divorce" them, though I did move to the opposite side of the country and I limited the length of my visits. I did however, "divorce" my sister, after both my parents died, who was physically and mentally abusive to me. I did that because it was suggested to me by my psychiatrist, and I do not think he was wrong in his suggestion. My earlier limiting of length of visits to my parents was also the suggestion of an MFCC counselor. I wonder how many of the self-sacrificing, devoted parents you talk to have kids in therapy whose therapists are telling them to limit contact or eliminate contact?
Good point, Sunny. While my shrink only ever heard my side of the story, I was counseled to consider a divorce to save my sanity. I had tried setting limits. My family does not understand limits. All I have to add is that no one would ask a victim of the Penn State affair, which has been discussed here, to consider an ongoing relationship with "good boundaries" with their abuser or with any of the people who knew and did nothing. it is not really fair to ask that of children whose parents have behaved in the same manner. I am not talking about parents who are overly critical or don't get along with your spouse. Yes, some people do maintain relationships with very abusive parents. We seem to think that we owe it to our parents because they gave us life. I was so loyal that I had a tough time talking to anyone because that is the nature of many abusive families.
I don't have any personal experience on this topic but I wonder:
When these now-adult children were small, what kind of relationship did they see their parents having with their parents (the kids' grandparents)?
Are these adult children simply treating their parents the way grandma and grandpa were treated back in the day?
Sad.
My brother "divorced" our parents after marrying a former friend of my sister. He said it was because my dad wasn't like the dad of his best friend in high school (Daddy didn't go to his wrestling matches in high school).
We all joined the Marines after high school and Brad couldn't seem to get his life in order following discharge. He was engaged to a woman to whom he called off the marriage. He then married a woman who was involved in an affair with him (even though we told him a woman who is willing to violate her vows once will do it again), had a child, then she divorced him (yes, history repeated itself). He then married this "friend" and the relationships between him and Mom and Dad were changed. When Daddy died, he didn't even stay for the funeral.
Mom was upset; now she is resigned. She changed her will so her estate is split only between me and my sister.
I have no idea what caused Brad to sever all ties with his family. We were all raised together. There was 18 months between me and him and 11 months between him and my sister (yup, Irish twins). It's been 8 years. I have no idea where he is. I guess I don't care anymore.
Dinah, mother to mother. If you found out that your other half raped your kid, would you force that kid to maintain a relationship? Would you stand up for the kid or for the other half. If the latter, would you understand why your kid might grow up to shun you? If you cannot relate to that on a human level, don't even answer.
I think a lot of the key here is to look at the current relationship without only focusing on the past- relationships of all kinds must continue to be fostered and fed, and what happened that worked 20 years ago might not be enough to sustain today. This is true in marital separations, and it may be true in parent/child relationships, too. Both parties have to be committed to keeping a relationship once biological necessity is no longer the foundation of that relationship. People grow apart if they aren't committed to staying together.
"Some seem to genuinely not know why the sudden change."
"The parents don't always say the family life was normal and great years ago, but they do long for relationship they once had with their adult children, some of whom have gone from being very devoted to being seemingly callous."
And I know for a fact that there was a time when my mother would tell people that we had always been so close and she just didn't know what had happened to change that. Our relationship had never been a good one but she was either in complete denial or just putting on a false front because she felt the need to keep up appearances.
This is a tough subject.
My mother has a personality disorder, and as an adult, I've learned to set limits and boundaries with her. We have extremely limited contact, mostly because I don't want my children to grow up with the kind of crap I had to grow up with.
I've always had a close(ish) relationship with my dad. When he and my mom divorced, I celebrated. And then he got remarried. Great! No judgement here, even though they started dating while he was still married to my mom. We're all just trying to survive, right?
We tried to get to know his wife.
And, I swear, he found another one. She is, pardon the term, a psycho-bitch.
For three years, we've tried to set limits with her. (For instance, you're not allowed to scream profanities at us around the children. Please find a private moment if you want to call us names.)
Nice.
A year ago, I told my dad we could no longer be with his wife at all. The limits weren't working and it was awful.
I told him I would love to see him ANYTIME...I'd even meet him half-way for lunch...whatever works for him. But, apparently he's not allowed to see me on his own.
Now it gets more interesting.
I got an email from someone in his church who is concerned that I have "cut off contact" with my dad. I have done no such thing. I have set firm boundaries that he interprets as cutting off contact.
I would love to spend time with my dad, but I will not be bullied by his wife.
I'm sad that my kids are growing up without him, but what can I do?
So, yeah. There are 2 sides to every story.
I have been brought up by two most caring parents and I am a very lucky child. But adolescence and several of my own psychological issues, issues related to adjustment and frustration led to innumerable fights at home, some three years back. It was extremely frequent, hurting and painful. Each day I felt like I was at the mercy of their moods. On some days it was just fine and no harsh words would be exchanged, however on some days it was very difficult for me to stay inside the house, for it used to be kind of an emotional torture. There were times when I would simply declare a divorce, a way of adding weight to my role. I would threaten them that I would rather leave them than listen to all the things they say about me. I would also argue that had it been someone else in my place they would have left them long before. Initially I believed that the regular fights were due to a formation of gap in our belief systems or lifestyles. Though I was very adjusting and moral, it was difficult to convince them that I had my own reasons for being the kind of person that I was. Since my parents they belonged to orthodox families, they were against me for my attitude which was more independent and straight-forward and idealistic. Sometimes I could feel that things were going out of hand and that I could no longer tolerate them, not another day. Eventually though, I could understand their position, talk to them more openly about issues and I tried to resolve several gaps in our relationships. Now we are together happily and I am constantly progressing in my career as a psychologist. I hope my story adds a new dimension to this issue of relationships between adult children and their parents.
Something really shocked me several months ago. And I don't know how shrinks or other people would view me, but an MFT actually called me "controlling" on my first visit with him :) I went in there because I said I wanted to look for someone who I thought would be a good family counselor for my father and I. Dad said he would go to counseling, so I went and did the scouting for us. So I checked out one guy. When I went in there, and I said that I wanted help telling my father that we needed to set limits with his wife (we have conflicts), the therapist said that was very controlling, I can't change people, and that I should just sever ties with them :/ And not only that, he told me that he severed ties with his mother, but to quell his guilt he sends her a birthday card...huh??? I didn't go back to that therapist. In fact, I stopped hunting and gave up after that. Kinda traumatized. Lot of weirdos out there. But it worked out anyhow because my father respects that I no longer want contact with his wife, so I just see him now and again (w/out his wife). And I'm comfortable with that.
I'm not really sure why so many people are comfortable cutting out their parents. That was hard for me to cut out my stepmother, and I'm not even close with her. But I had to remind myself that she really doesn't have a relationship with me, it's not something she wanted, and my relationship with my father is more important. To maintain that relationship, I had to cut her out. And it wasn't just that I found her annoying or critical, etc. She would complain about me to my father and get him riled up over nothing. She would actively try to create conflict between my father and myself. She still does, and I don't even see her anymore. I don't see my father much either. Though when we do see each other we don't even discuss her. We just enjoy each others company. A sister of mine said his wife is angry that he still has contact with me and complains about it. I find that interesting, and I wonder what the psychology is behind that.
I don't recommend cutting out family members...but I will say this. By cutting out my father's wife, and only putting myself in situations where she was not present, I noticed I was much happier with the rest of my fam. I enjoyed their company more. So even though my time with them decreased (because I wouldn't be in the same room with his wife), the quality of the interactions increased.
And I think it taught me another lesson too. If I ever have a stepchild, I will not complain about that child to my spouse. And I will work hard to develop a relationship with that child. My own mother, when she was alive, was stepmom to my half sister, and they were very close. My mom always tried to make my half sister look good, and they would do stuff together. I realize that is where my dad's wife screwed up. My own mother seemed to intuitively know how to develop a close relationship with a stepchild. My father's wife, however, was completely bent on having no relationship at all and behaved like the stepchildren were a threat to her marriage...and I have no clue why she is like that.
@Marie: Wow. That sounds like my Dad and his wife. He's married to a crazy woman and limits have to be in place. But he took a different route. He will still see me, because he doesn't want to have to choose between his wife and his daughter. I hope your dad will come around some day. Interesting that he married a crazy woman twice. My mom was very sweet, loving, and popular with people. But then he married a psycho woman and I have no clue why...
It's interesting that people either assume that one was abused or that they are just shallow discarders of their relationship with their parents. I have not chosen to shun my father, who recently was found to be addicted to cocaine and had lied to our family for 30 years. This also involved sending the family into financial ruin. I thought I had a "totally normal family" (though not one without issues) only to watch it be driven to the brink. I get why an adult child would divorce a parent who did such things. While I have chosen to maintain contact on my own grounds, my brother has only seen my father once since early November. I get his choice. I feel like that too sometimes, but then other times, I feel the pangs of the fact that he is my father.
There are not many relationships that can stand the test of absolutely unconditional love. Last anon, if you cut off your relationship with your father, he wouldn't go to a psychiatrist and say "I don't know why they won't talk to me.," he would say "My family couldn't tolerate the my cocaine addiction and all the pain that caused them." It's a fairly common problem for addicts.
Step-parents are a different story. These are complicated relationships.
Anon with the question of sexual abuse and taking sides: really, this story isn't about long standing anger from abuse. Personally, "I'm not speaking to you because you did nothing while I was being abused" seems like a reasonable response to me. Even if the parent claims they didn't know what was transpiring, we can all understand why someone who was sexually abused by a family member might want distance and carry anger.
I hate it when step-parents put a spouse in the middle and force them to choose between their children and themselves.
Any way you look at these stories, from both sides, they are painful ones.
I "divorced" my father. I was physically and emotionally abused as a child, but that's not the reason I did it. After years of trying to have a relationship, it became clear that he was too much of a narcissist to ever give anything in the relationship -- and by that I mean to ever ask how I was or what was happening in my life or to even care when I nearly died from pulmonary embolisms -- and so I stopped trying and stopped speaking to him.
My husband excommunicated my family shortly after our marriage about 14 years ago. I have lived separated from them all this time and it has made me angry and sad. Now I have decided that the only way to even things is to excommunicate his parents. I feel hollow and even more empty and tired but I must mete out my punishment. I would have excommunicated his siblings if he had any. An eye for an eye.
You seem to ignore developmental changes in both the parents who are aging (whether 50 or 70) and changing and perhaps growing or not growing; and the "children" who may keep score one way as actual "children" but have since become adults. You seem to register this at the first of the blog and then at the end take the stance that these adult "children" are rather spoiled and full of expectations and haven't gone through any developmental changes. I am assuming this is an assumption on your part as you say the children don't come with their parents to sessions so it doesn't sound like some thing you "know". There are indeed two sides to every story and perhaps you might think in your practice about the characteristics of the generation of older adults you are seeing as you do seem to be thinking of what has been written about the younger adults and the characteristics of their generation (whether Generation Y or X or Mosaic or Millenials or..). You may have desired to inspire a reaction with your blog post but just causing a reaction is sometimes a hurtful and dangerous thing to do. Especially in a world that I would think most psychiatrists at least have recognized as very frightened. Division isn't helpful right now. Communication; acceptance; forgiveness; hearing what the other generation has to say; loving in spite of the past; asking for what you want in the future and how you might get it; encouraging people to continue to love and to find a way their family member will allow them to show love even in a very small way - these are things that will fit almost any circumstance. It is in some ways unusual for people over age of 55 or 60 to see a shrink. So I can't help but be curious about what your sample population might have in common that would make such a thing more likely to have happened to them? And what do you do to help them with this situation?
So I don't mean to divide, but the task of psychotherapy involves having some alliance with the patient in front of you. Shrink Rap seems to have readers may be saying "I'm mad at my parents and with reason." I have those patients, but none of them, like most of our readers here, have just written their parents out of their lives. On the other hand, I have seen a bunch of people who's children have written them out. I don't quite count adolescents in this group (they generally don't go completely AWOL), because developmentally it's not that unusually to have problems with your parents while you are separating.
In these cases, I feel some sympathy for the parents because theirs is the story I hear and their pain is intense and palpable. I don't have the adult child's side, but I am well aware that people don't estrange themselves for no reason. I try to explore this with the parents, but as they are the patient, I am sympathetic to their pain. It would be no more therapeutic to say to an estranged parent, "You must have done awful things to deserve this," then it would be to say to an abused child, "you must have been a difficult, misbehaving little critter to inspire such wrath." In my office, I tend to feel sympathy for the person who is there. I also feel frustration for them that they don't have an answer, and so in the case of anon above with the narcissistic, uncaring father, I would want for the father (if he were my patient) to be able to say, "My kid emailed me that he won't speak to me because I never ask how he is or what he's doing and I didn't visit him in the hospital when he was sick." Something concrete I can help my patient work with to change.
The scoreboard I mentioned in the CPN post...it's just a pattern I've noticed, in many parents and many children, even those who are not estranged.
Okay, let me take a quick mental tally. I can think of 3 people in my personal life having great difficulties with their adult children whom they were previously close to. None are totally estranged. All of the parents are over 60. At work...Two come to mind, both over 70 at the time the estrangement began...I know there are more...a while back there was one, child didn't talk to her for 10 years but suddenly started to again, she was around 60 (the parent).
It's unusual for people over age 55 to see a shrink? Not in my practice. Age range 18-92. Oh, the 92 year old, I think one of her kids went silent on her, she hasn't been in for a while.
Karis wrote: "Communication; acceptance; forgiveness; hearing what the other generation has to say; loving in spite of the past; asking for what you want in the future and how you might get it; encouraging people to continue to love and to find a way their family member will allow them to show love even in a very small way - these are things that will fit almost any circumstance." Absolutely!!! I encourage my patients to try, I invite them to bring their children.
I am surprised that we've not heard from any parents here.
I can't count how many times I've divorced my parents. I know I've hurt my Mother the most... because I'm a 32 yr old female who is Bipolor and has gotton into fights with family members in my mothers house. None of her other kids seem to want to come around because of me. That's the sad part..
If the parent has been abandoned and the parent would like communication with the child, I wonder if it might be worth exploring ways in which the parent could attempt to restore peace to the relationship. My parents never called me. They left it to me to be the communicator. If I left longer gaps in the relationship at times, they did not fill those gaps. Perhaps a card, a call, an email a text, some photos might help get talking restarted. When my sister and I were not talking for several years, she could have helped smooth over our difficulties with an apology, a call, a note...anything. Instead she waited until I did the calling then said she had been heart-broken Well, not too heart-broken or she would have reached out instead of waiting for me to do it.
No comment other than to say that my wv is nolabler. I like that.
Sunny,
I agree with you that your situation sounds like one in which your parents "dropped the ball" so to speak in terms of communication over a long period of time. There are some cases where I truly believe that parents, even if they don't understand it, respect the need to give space to their estranged adult child. In those cases, they may not call because they worry it will just anger their loved one more. That's not the case in what you described, but just wanted to point out that sometimes the parent doesn't call for fear of making the estrangement worse and to give their loved one time and space.
Dinah,
I think that the children grow up move out and then (unfairly) compare the relationship and interactions they have with their parents to the relationships they have with their partners, siblings, roommates and friends and find them lacking.
My parents although very flawed were on the whole decent parents, but they are completely like many of my peers parents (I'm 24) unable to deal sucessfully with any kind of problems.
When I have problems in my life my friends and sister is there for me, helping me find medical care, comforting me after a death or breakup, helping me to move or going with me to find an apartment. My parents however get so upset and intent on offering and having me follow unworkable advice that dealing with them takes as much time and energy as dealing with my problem.
I love my parents and am glad to be in a relationship with them. But, the few people I know that are divorced from their parents do so because they can't deal with both their parents and their own problems.
As children your parents are the most important people in your life, but as adults many other people (your spouse, children, responsibilities) need to come first.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/20/health/20mind.html?ref=health
Good article,that was.
I am estranged from both of my (divorced) parents and it is unendingly painful (but less painful than keeping contact with them, which is why it is the only choice at this time). I am disturbed by how flip this decision is made to look, like it's some kind of fashion to shun your parents. If I had a magic wand, I would love nothing more than to have some kind of baseline, basic, functioning relationship with them. Through therapy I tried all through my 20's to fix things, and even re-opened a relationship with my Dad, only to be estranged again because of him verbally abusing and terrifying my 3 year old son. I regret giving it another go with my father, and I aplogise to my kids for letting Grandpa stay with us, and it breaks my heart. It breaks my heart that they don't miss my father, it breaks my heart not to be able to be near my parents, but at least I can function on some kind of level emotionally as opposed to being constantly traumatized by them. If you were to ask my parents why we are estranged, neither of them would show any kind of self awareness about their behavior and they would put it all on me (I've seen that in writing and heard them say those things) I'm certain they would say we were 'so close' and they don't understand why we're estranged. I wish as a society that there was more understanding for adults that have the courage to leave abuse and protect themselves and their children. I love my own children dearly... if I make it hard to live for my children and take no steps to be responsible for my behavior or make positive changes, I would rather they cut me off so they can survive and function rather than keep suffering abuse because that's just what you're supposed to do. Maybe if society stopped stigmatizing the adult child's decision to move toward health and wholeness instead of drowning in dysfunction (and yes, sometimes there is no other choice but to cut them off like a dead limb), then these 'blameless' parents would be more motivated to take a look at themselves and stop being so damaging to their adult children, and then maybe we all really could have some kind of happily ever after.
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