tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post8300572853473257278..comments2024-03-18T03:28:36.581-04:00Comments on Shrink Rap: A Dangerous MethodUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-9748648863544458852013-04-11T22:07:03.029-04:002013-04-11T22:07:03.029-04:00This is a very interesting blog. I experienced a s...This is a very interesting blog. I experienced a shocking and traumatic boundary violation with a doctor who was not a shrink. But in Australia, at least, our medical boards are completely useless. I could not understand why the board could not see what I knew to be true. When I eventually got my medical file through Freedom of Information, I saw that he had cut and paste my file like some kindergarten kid. It was SO OBVIOUS but no one at the board asked the obvious questions. I can tell you that there is nothing quite like being retraumatised by a board that is set up to 'protect the public and guide doctors'. I don't believe in conspiracy theories, but I understand them better now! I can see why so many people here believe that the board is actually set up to protect doctors and guide the public AWAY from the truth. There is a very real problem with keeping doctor/patient boundaries. I am beginning to think that it would be much better if doctors were simply viewed as plumbers and builders, and not be required to keep any particular boundary. After all, perhaps they only have the power because of some outmoded perception about education. In the days of the original oath, very few people could read or write, and the few and selected 'educated' therefore had immense power over the masses. But that's no longer the case any more. As my mate in the country said to me, "I will call my local doctor 'Dr.' Brown when he calls ME "Farmer" Sam! I'm from a fourth generation family of medicos and having seen these old blokes drunk in their clubs over the years, I don't have any illusions about them. But, on the other hand, I was brought up to do EXACTLY what the doctor ordered, and that was hard wired so deeply within me that I couldn't move despite knowing what was happening to me. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-68246820518712140332012-02-10T22:23:00.591-05:002012-02-10T22:23:00.591-05:00... also Jesse, I understand that you feel strongl...... also Jesse, I understand that you feel strongly because of the damage you have seen done to your patients. I don’t doubt it’s real. Psychotherapy is inherently dangerous because the client no longer trusts their own judgement — I’ve experienced the horrors myself. Adding the weight of an inappropriate sexual relationship obviously increases the risk.<br /><br />However. The women who have gone to you for help needed help. <br /><br />The patients who did not need help... are not your patients.Alison Cumminshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06370841996857073237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-54816055200273944822012-02-10T22:12:25.375-05:002012-02-10T22:12:25.375-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Alison Cumminshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06370841996857073237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-56032826206502885792012-02-09T06:20:42.931-05:002012-02-09T06:20:42.931-05:00Sarebear: Thanks! I've enjoyed filling in a bi...Sarebear: Thanks! I've enjoyed filling in a bit lately.<br /><br />Dinah: Let me be clear this is Jesse's post and all the kinky sex discussion is owed to him. My living room is Downton Abbey proper. Oh wait...there was that matter of the Turkish ambassador....ClinkShrinkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13316134491751195651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-20742075812062153452012-02-08T20:23:02.951-05:002012-02-08T20:23:02.951-05:00Alison's comments are excellent, and it is unf...Alison's comments are excellent, and it is unfortunate that my answers can only address a part of the questions asked.<br /><br />Yes, there are many people who have suffered abuse in multiple forms yet went on to live outstanding, accomplished lives. Yet they may still carry the harm they suffered with them. As physicians we are attuned to the harm. A surgeon may through total neglect cause the loss of a patient's finger, and that patient may go on to win the Olympics or write a great novel. We do not say that no harm occurred. The surgeon should be censored.<br /><br />In the movie Sabina was betrayed by her psychiatrist in multiple ways. He gained her trust, but then betrayed it. Her true life accomplishments are outstanding. In my experience those women or men who have had such experiences carry the harm from it for many years, and it colors their relationships with others. <br /><br />So I was speaking to the film, and what might have happened to a patient treated as Sabina was. What Alison says is just. It also might be that in life her own relationships, with men, her colleagues, and children were damaged by her experience. Maybe not. There are many possibilities. My own views are from having treated women who who were seriously harmed emotionally by having had relationships with their doctors.<br /><br />Yes, a relationship with a psychiatrist that carries out the patient's wishes through fantasy can be as harmful as a physical one, but in general that is not the case. A sexual relationship can (can, not always!) be felt by the patient as akin to incest, which is less likely in a strong friendship or "virtual" affair. There are so many possibilites.<br /><br />This is such a powerful subject, perhaps some of the readers would like to submit blogs of their own for consideration by the Rappers!jessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11077223398907532291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-65492203911048389762012-02-08T19:33:00.436-05:002012-02-08T19:33:00.436-05:00There is so much in what Alison wrote that perhaps...There is so much in what Alison wrote that perhaps I should blog on the subject. In the meantime let me address this: "What I can’t accept is that psychiatrists and perverted sex have magical destructive powers that can render any woman permanently unfit for school, work or any kind of human relationship. ."<br /><br />Alison, I agree with what you wrote. The problem I was addressing is not any particular action/act/relationship in itself, but this: a patient often comes into therapy because of certain events that have occurred in his/her life that have been traumatic and have led to symptoms and suffering. In therapy there might be some attempt to understand those events and find ways of overcoming the lingering effect they still are having on the patient's life.<br /><br />If the therapeutic relationship contains elements which in fact replicate the original harm, leaving the patient feeling responsible for it and even more guilty and fragile, with an increase in symptoms, then the treatment no treatment at all. <br /><br />In the film this is what occurs. The worst of the abuse from the father is replicated by the therapist. Many times over, in various ways.<br /><br />I hope what I am saying is clear enough. If not, I may blog on it in the future. Perhaps seeing the film will make clearer what I am saying.<br /><br />There is one scene in the film that makes clear the vastness of Jung's (the film Jung! Not the real Jung) selfishness. He and Freud are eating a formal dinner. The server presents a plate of meat, and Jung takes a huge serving, perhaps 70% of everything on the large platter, and starts eating a huge piece of meat. The camera turns and shows that there are about eight other guests at the table, looking at him wide eyed! Nothing much for them! And that is how he treats Sabina and his wife. Yuk.jessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11077223398907532291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-27654511249344131152012-02-08T19:23:24.246-05:002012-02-08T19:23:24.246-05:00Dinah,
Thanks!Dinah,<br />Thanks!Alison Cumminshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06370841996857073237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-57064402190419911402012-02-08T19:22:34.438-05:002012-02-08T19:22:34.438-05:00Jesse,
Can you point to an example of my complet...Jesse, <br /><br />Can you point to an example of my completely misunderstanding?<br /><br />There may be implications of what you wrote that you didn’t intend, but it’s possible they are there anyway.<br /><br />Of course it’s also possible that I am completely misunderstanding you, because taken together some of your statements seem inconsistent to me. Specifically:<br /><br />“[T]he fact that in real life Sabina did so well personally and professionally is evidence that what was portrayed in the film did not actually happen.”<br /><br />“I agree with [HiFunctioningWoman] that “It truly is possible to be haunted by the past yet function very well in society.””<br /><br />Those two statements seem to contradict one another.<br /><br />You do clarify later saying, “I said there is evidence that what was shown in the film did not happen, not that it is absolutely proven.” However, “evidence” is a very strong word. In this context I would say instead that Speilrein’s doing well is “consistent with” a more conventional relationship. Lots of people do well, including people with horrific pasts or twisted presents. The fact that someone does well tells us very little about the conventionalality of their emotional histories. <br /><br />“[T]here are well known cases of women, very successful ones, who married their analysts. Those cases, and emotional affairs, are far different from what was shown in the film.”<br /><br />How do you know? Are emotional affairs always positive or benign? Are the people involved in them always high-functioning? Are marriages always happy? Perhaps you know for a fact that the high-profile marriages you know of were in fact drama-free. Fine. But then you define an emotional affair as a relationship not conducted with one’s psychiatrist and not containing elements of violence, drama or recapitulation of the past. Obviously by that definition, Jung and Spielrein were not depicted in the movie as having an emotional affair. My definition of an emotional affair is much simpler: it’s what an affair would be but without the orgasms. In my world, orgasms are not a prerequisite for abuse, so it’s perfectly possible (in my world) that they could have been obsessed with one another and that he could have been emotionally and physically abusive even if there were no orgasms involved. <br /><br />I realize you are focussing on the violence that Jung directed at Spielrein. I don’t think that the movie was depicting a modern, consensual BDSM relationship with safe words. My reframing involved a story that if Spielrein herself were kinky, Jung’s violence toward her would have made sense in a sexual way allowing her to participate in the relationship without being destroyed. <br /><br />My story was that Spielrein could have been resilient, that she could have known what she was doing, that she could make lemonade. This version of Spielrein is consistent with the theme of her doctoral thesis and the fact that she became quite accomplished.<br /><br />I have no idea whether Jung hit her, but we do know that he treated her badly. None of us knows whether they engaged in genital intercourse, but we do know that they were explicit about their sexual attraction for one another. I don’t see that adding genital intercourse to the mix would have added much to the awfulness; and whether his violence towards her was physical in addition to emotional is unlikely to have made much difference either. <br /><br />Psychiatrists should not be visiting patients in their homes and telling them how attracted they are, and they shouldn’t throw patients under the bus. This <i>did</i> happen to Spielrein, though the details will never be known. <br /><br />And yet she did well. <br /><br />To me this is not evidence that Jung behaved at all acceptably towards her, because we know he didn’t. It’s evidence that she was resilient and a survivor. <br /><br />... Until she was murdered.Alison Cumminshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06370841996857073237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-4235452186247621252012-02-08T17:12:20.242-05:002012-02-08T17:12:20.242-05:00Alison, Your comment was moderated in. We were th...Alison, Your comment was moderated in. We were thinking about it.Dinahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09227988351623862689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-31484058782102784142012-02-08T17:10:54.458-05:002012-02-08T17:10:54.458-05:00@Alison, I must have been unclear because you are ...@Alison, I must have been unclear because you are completely misunderstanding what I wrote. You are bringing up important questions but they are not the subject of this thread.Jessenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-61375674516658550822012-02-08T16:40:46.853-05:002012-02-08T16:40:46.853-05:00@HiFunctioning Woman: again I agree with you that ...@HiFunctioning Woman: again I agree with you that "It truly is possible to be haunted by the past yet function very well in society." I know of people who went through Auschwitz and of whom your comment applies. Your comment expresses that truth eloquently.<br /><br />As to my remark about tar and feathering it is a bit tongue in cheek. It expresses that your remark was more complete and correct than mine, but that frequently here on Shrink Rap there have been certain things that would be impolitic if said by a doctor, a psychiatrist, or, as in this case, by a male psychiatrist.jessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11077223398907532291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-47180309728869011972012-02-08T11:21:36.535-05:002012-02-08T11:21:36.535-05:00[I posted a comment earlier which has either been ...[I posted a comment earlier which has either been moderated out — fair enough, I called a couple of Jesse’s ideas bizarre — or accidentally spammed out — it had some urls in it.]Alison Cumminshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06370841996857073237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-87357260346415216622012-02-08T07:55:48.746-05:002012-02-08T07:55:48.746-05:00I concur with Sarebear :)I concur with Sarebear :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-48463543533133176672012-02-08T00:15:43.232-05:002012-02-08T00:15:43.232-05:00I miss Dinah, but I'm also enjoying the increa...I miss Dinah, but I'm also enjoying the increased posting by Clink and Roy, who seemed to post more in the early days than they do anymore. <br /><br />You're holding up the fort well, and please keep posting after Dinah's back too!<br /><br />(waves at Dinah hoping she is having fun somewhere!)Sarebearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09208596053319110470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-68876873838616229922012-02-07T21:10:42.546-05:002012-02-07T21:10:42.546-05:00Well it is from David Cronenberg, not known for hi...Well it is from David Cronenberg, not known for his straightforward take on things, or his light touch as a director! E.g. Dead ringers (shudder), Crash, Spider...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-60039882764009583942012-02-07T20:27:12.731-05:002012-02-07T20:27:12.731-05:00I agree with everything Jesse said. It is pervers...I agree with everything Jesse said. It is perverse. A patient is paying a therapist/psychiatrist for help not a date, and a patient ought to be able to expect that the person they're seeing has some ethics. Thankfully, most are ethical but those few who aren't do a lot of damage. <br /><br />AbbeyNormalAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-58731144097282914642012-02-07T18:42:17.824-05:002012-02-07T18:42:17.824-05:00Jesse,
I I had to pick one line to distill what I...Jesse,<br /><br />I I had to pick one line to distill what I said, it would be:It truly is possible to be haunted by the past yet function very well in society. I am not clear on why you are happy that a woman said it or why it would be grounds for tar and feathering if a man said it. I actually do not know much about Jung at all, and I do not know what he did or did not do to the woman in question. It doesn't matter for the sake of what I was saying. I would like to say I am glad you agree with what I have said but I am not certain that you read what I said the way I meant it to be understood.HiFunctioningWomannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-61343702955731570742012-02-07T18:13:49.261-05:002012-02-07T18:13:49.261-05:00Fun Movie: "Kinky Boots"
It's one ...Fun Movie: "Kinky Boots"<br /><br />It's one of those British underdog movies, set in a shoe factory. None of this depressing stuff!<br /><br />RHAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-15946800172093820182012-02-07T18:01:01.102-05:002012-02-07T18:01:01.102-05:00One of the most entertaining things I've read ...One of the most entertaining things I've read on here... and I've been lurking for years. <br /><br />Think possibly they will create a movie on Her and the kinky stuff that goes on in her living room? =)Kimberlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03012475698562637585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-2088275968077261032012-02-07T16:34:51.073-05:002012-02-07T16:34:51.073-05:00I feel bad about hogging the thread, but... I don’...I feel bad about hogging the thread, but... I don’t see the controversy in anything HiFunctioningWoman said? I feel like I’m in an alternate universe here.Alison Cumminshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06370841996857073237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-45143509057206609942012-02-07T16:30:43.073-05:002012-02-07T16:30:43.073-05:00Jesse,
If I understand you correctly, a sexual r...Jesse, <br /><br />If I understand you correctly, a sexual relationship between a therapist and a woman patient is especially damaging if it includes cunnilingus in addition to heterosexual genital intercourse. (And yes, I have noticed that you emphasize that the people who are damaged are specifically women, not simply patients of any sexo or gender; and that you refer to Carl Jung by his family name and Sabina Spielrein by her first name.)<br /><br />The notion that orgasm from any technique other than heterosexual genital intercourse is inherently damaging is bizarre. <br /><br />Also, if I understand you correctly, emotional affairs between psychiatrists and patients are not damaging. Again, I find this bizarre. <br /><br />Whatever Jung and Spielrein’s relationship involved, he lied about it to Freud and blamed it on her. At some level he appeared to believe that the relationship was inappropriate. <br /><br />Jesse:<br />“The film does not show kinky fantasy fulfillment. It shows him slapping her very hard repeatedly. Just what she described her father having done.”<br /><br />Actually, I would say you perfectly described kinky fantasy fulfilment in this context. It is exactly what I understood from your review.<br /><br />Have you ever read anything by Pat Califia? I recommend Macho Sluts for insight into perversion and sadomachochism. <br /><br />Also Penelope Trunk is interesting. She is definitely trouble, has been “damaged,” but actually has a fairly successful life.<br /><br />Stories based on her childhood: <br />http://www.altx.com/hyperx/sss/sundyi.htm<br />http://www.altx.com/hyperx/sss/fiftn.htm<br /><br />What Penelope Trunk does now:<br />http://www.penelopetrunk.com/<br /><br />I don’t think she had unprofessional non-genital relations with a psychiatrist, but somehow I think she would have been just fine if she had.<br /><br />Fantasizing that any psychiatrist has enough power to destroy any woman on the planet is a litte bit on the narcissistic side. As I said above (in a comment that didn’t make it through) I agree that sex with a patient is a serious issue.<br /><br />What I can’t accept is that psychiatrists and perverted sex have magical destructive powers that can render any woman permanently unfit for school, work or any kind of human relationship. That smacks of magical thinking to me.Alison Cumminshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06370841996857073237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-47259094282471618492012-02-07T16:18:42.964-05:002012-02-07T16:18:42.964-05:00Jane,
This is a ClinkShrink post. It's her li...Jane,<br />This is a ClinkShrink post. It's her living room where the kinky stuff happens. Brings out the nun in her.Dinahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09227988351623862689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-22661557255900981142012-02-07T15:53:56.729-05:002012-02-07T15:53:56.729-05:00@HiFunctioningWoman: I actually agree with everyth...@HiFunctioningWoman: I actually agree with everything you wrote, but am very glad that a woman said what you did. I'm afraid that if I had written what you did there would not be enough tar and feathers on the east coast for me. There are always exceptions to the common experience, and in fact there are well known cases of women, very successful ones, who married their analysts. Those cases, and emotional affairs, are far different from what was shown in the film.<br /><br />I said there is evidence that what was shown in the film did not happen, not that it is absolutely proven. Think of the converse: if a person suffers from symptoms that frequently stem from abuse it can be evidence that the abuse happened. Not proven. Simply something that, for instance, I as a psychiatrist who does treat numbers of people who relate stories of abuse take into account in understanding their symptoms.jessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11077223398907532291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-82646332033238134842012-02-07T15:40:19.582-05:002012-02-07T15:40:19.582-05:00These are interesting comments. I learn so much fr...These are interesting comments. I learn so much from this blog. Though I never thought I would be learning so much about kinky sex...I had no idea Dinah's living room was so scandalous.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06030949818467743750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-40884186234027130952012-02-07T14:59:03.122-05:002012-02-07T14:59:03.122-05:00Hard to believe that Jesse wants to get into a dis...Hard to believe that Jesse wants to get into a discussion with readers about what is and isn't kinky.Dinahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09227988351623862689noreply@blogger.com