tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post5549598158251492718..comments2024-03-18T03:28:36.581-04:00Comments on Shrink Rap: Shock ValueUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-46839693438862882532015-03-09T20:32:29.902-04:002015-03-09T20:32:29.902-04:00I would like to use a few of these comments for a ...I would like to use a few of these comments for a chapter in our book on involuntary ECT. No names. But a couple that highlight the spectrum of concerns about both efficacy, memory, and the mix of good and bad. Please let me know if you object to this. I was interested in the comments by Sunny CA, the anonymous Australian researcher (no mention of location), and Carole,Dinahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09227988351623862689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-6988441873206043122011-05-05T22:17:56.175-04:002011-05-05T22:17:56.175-04:00I have had 3 series of ECT. The third one included...I have had 3 series of ECT. The third one included maintenance treatments for a period of 18 months (every other week, then every three weeks and finally every 4 weeks for several months). I would do it again. My memory losses were small and when reminded I usually could recall most of them. I have more memory loss from my extended period of major depression than from ECT.<br /><br />I vote in favor of ECT as a possible treatment, especially for those who are suffering from suicidal intentions. I know for me, ECT saved my life.Carolenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-77120819754066286422011-03-29T13:17:48.475-04:002011-03-29T13:17:48.475-04:00I have had 19 ECT treatments in 4 years and just f...I have had 19 ECT treatments in 4 years and just finished a course. Myself personally ECT works well, will no side effects at all. This is not to say that everyone will have such experiences. I blog about it because the anti-ECT noise online is over shadowing the good outcomes. You can read my story here.http://natashatracy.com/treatment/ect/myths-realities-journey-ect-bipolar-badger/<br /><br />and my personal blog here: thebipolarbadger.comSteven M. Schwartzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14753759177558590432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-92007361715569354212011-02-22T06:57:24.749-05:002011-02-22T06:57:24.749-05:00To Sunny Ca,
I agree - the loss of my cognitive s...To Sunny Ca,<br /><br />I agree - the loss of my cognitive skills and the memory problems are not a good advertisement for ECT. However, I would not be here posting without having had ECT. It is like being on a tightrope over a bottomless pit - every day I think about letting myself fall in permanently, the cost has been extraordinary, but there is a small skerrick of selflessness left that reminds me of my kids. I don't know for sure if ECT is what dragged me back onto the tightrope. I do know that high doses of medication wasn't helping. Frankly, life sucks, and if I didn't have kids, nothing would keep me teetering on the tightrope. I think euthanasia should be available for untreatable mental illness as well as terminal physical illness.<br /><br />P.S. I retain anonymity because if I were to ever recover enough cognitive ability to do research again, the stigma of depression might prevent an employer from giving me a chance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-42959529577864851122011-02-20T13:13:35.348-05:002011-02-20T13:13:35.348-05:00I am really sorry. I followed the link to the Min...I am really sorry. I followed the link to the MindFreedom website to read more, and used the links there to write to the Minnesota senators for help. This should not happen to anyone. Ever.Sunny CAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11451116932556227816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-69877663443942852732011-02-20T04:22:52.155-05:002011-02-20T04:22:52.155-05:00Hi Sarebare,
You said,
""If she's ...Hi Sarebare,<br /><br />You said,<br /><br />""If she's functioning that well, why would they order it?""<br /><br />Are you asking out of curiosity or because you feel there is another side of the story? I just want to make sure my response is appropriate.<br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br />AAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-61856712390110616912011-02-20T00:52:25.079-05:002011-02-20T00:52:25.079-05:00If she's functioning that well, why would they...If she's functioning that well, why would they order it?Sarebearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09208596053319110470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-83757405688548782732011-02-19T09:54:08.883-05:002011-02-19T09:54:08.883-05:00AA, that's horrible. I cannot believe they ca...AA, that's horrible. I cannot believe they can do that to people. Do they honestly believe terrorizing people is helpful for depression? Sickening.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-43677915728310884542011-02-19T03:23:51.327-05:002011-02-19T03:23:51.327-05:00""Her husband Robert (see photo of the c...""Her husband Robert (see photo of the couple above) agreed: "Elizabeth doesn't need electroshock. She's been fine, active. We've been doing things together. She's pretty sharp, but her memory is still off from the electroshock. I'm angry and upset about this court order for her to have forced outpatient electroshock."""<br /><br />She probably wishes she had moved or fled somewhere because she has now been forcibly institutionalized and faces months of ECT.<br /><br />http://www.mindfreedom.org/shield/ellis/ee-3<br /><br />Psychiatrists and mental health workers who visit this blog - I would love to hear from you as to how situations like this create trust in the mental health system. Even people I know who feel they benefited from psych treatment find these involuntary commitment laws extremely frightening.<br /><br />Please understand that I am not looking to attack or flame anyone. I am just speechless as to what has happened and am trying to make sense of it all.<br /><br />AAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-9505055952307252512011-02-18T08:32:42.545-05:002011-02-18T08:32:42.545-05:00Sarebear,
You make a valid point about a depressed...Sarebear,<br />You make a valid point about a depressed person's inability to move, but I had read the MindFreedom site in which Elizabeth said:<br />"Elizabeth added, "I'm in very good mental health. I'm active, eating, sleeping, doing everything. I'm in deep appreciation of MindFreedom for putting out alerts."<br /><br />Her husband Robert (see photo of the couple above) agreed: "Elizabeth doesn't need electroshock. She's been fine, active. We've been doing things together. She's pretty sharp, but her memory is still off from the electroshock. I'm angry and upset about this court order for her to have forced outpatient electroshock."<br /><br />I was thinking more along the lines of hopping into a car and heading to the next state for a vacation rather than a whole scale move, but options such as a visit to friend or relative out of state ought to be considered in my opinion. <br /><br />The anonymous PhD researcher who posted, in my opinion is an example that argues against shock treatments not for them.Sunny CAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11451116932556227816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-11425260374323582752011-02-17T05:20:22.130-05:002011-02-17T05:20:22.130-05:00Update on Elizabeth Ellis, the Minnesota resident ...Update on Elizabeth Ellis, the Minnesota resident being forced to have ECT against her will. Because she didn't report for a session last month, a judge has authorized a sheriff to pick her up any day to bring her to the institution to have it.<br /><br />http://www.mindfreedom.org/shield/ellis/ee-2<br /><br />Needless to say, I am speechless that we are engaging in techniques that were common in Soviet Russia to force ECT on someone against their will.<br /><br />AAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-23801367831323452502011-02-16T21:12:36.417-05:002011-02-16T21:12:36.417-05:00They shut the ect program down at a hospital in my...They shut the ect program down at a hospital in my state because so many people who turned 65 and were covered by Medicare suddenly needed ECT.<br /><br />Several years ago I was told I needed ECT, and I said no. I'm glad I didn't do it. The risk of memory loss was not worth it to me. I was told I had recurrent major depression, treatment resistant, and ECT was supposedly my only hope. It wasn't my only hope. I just needed a different practitioner. I shudder to think what would have happened to my brain if I lived in Minnesota or another state where they can give it by force. I'm sure the whole forced treatment thing really helps lift a depressed person's spirits.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-61012759848152150072011-02-16T16:27:18.865-05:002011-02-16T16:27:18.865-05:00@clairsmum
Older women are the target market for ...@clairsmum<br /><br />Older women are the target market for ECT and over represented in the population of people getting it. I am sure it's all to do with being particularily indicated rather than them just being generally more compliant and less likely to refuse.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-11190393861701290202011-02-13T17:04:52.893-05:002011-02-13T17:04:52.893-05:00as a nurse, i have seen some terrific improvement ...as a nurse, i have seen some terrific improvement in function in elderly clients struggling with depression. they were already in a nursing home due to combination of multiple illnesses and care needs, so memory loss impact was less apparent.<br />as someone who had had depression off and on since age 13, i would consider ECT if i couldn't get a drug combo to work. as you get older and have other health problems, sometimes ECT is better tolerated and less likely to disrupt physiological functions than multiple drug cocktails do.<br />Read the book by Kitty Dukakis on her experiences w/ ECT - she is the wife of former governor of Massachusetts Michael Dukakis. There is a coauthor to the book (MD or researcher) who covers the scientific parts and she writes about her own experiences and impact of ECT on self and family.clairesmumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-82501177093574590362011-02-12T10:26:40.223-05:002011-02-12T10:26:40.223-05:00Recently a few papers ran a story about a cranial ...Recently a few papers ran a story about a cranial stimulator device sold by Fisher Wallace. Here's a link: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703779704576073762463762744.html<br /><br />Sounds similar to ECT, but maybe it is a safer, cheaper alternative?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-70059562964751366032011-02-11T14:55:04.441-05:002011-02-11T14:55:04.441-05:00I would imagine that a patient that is so badly of...I would imagine that a patient that is so badly off that someone wants to force them into ECT, is having so many problems functioning that moving would involve far too many detailed tasks for them. I know the concept of moving for me is just too daunting for me, and yet with my husband still out of work, we may have to eventually move in with my parents, and I don't know how I can cope with all that's involved with it.<br /><br />I literally don't feel capable, AT ALL, of what's required.<br /><br />So it's a bit disingenous to say well why doesn't she just move, then? Depression robs you of alot. Simple things aren't so simple.Sarebearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09208596053319110470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-28290345936247087442011-02-11T12:52:43.176-05:002011-02-11T12:52:43.176-05:00my mother had ECT. it briefly helped to keep her a...my mother had ECT. it briefly helped to keep her alive by reducing her symptoms slightly, but she never really recovered from her depression and 7 years later she committed suicide (after multiple attempts). not sure yet whether her extra years of torment were worth it for her or for her family.<br /><br />she retained most of her memory, except for the recent events just prior to the ECT (in fact she unfortunately forgot that she consented to treatment, so she became convinced that the ECT was against her will). <br /><br />the ECT itself caused very little problems, but she had significant memory issues (brain damage, essentially) from suicide attempts (she also did some intentionally milder overdosing for the purposes of wiping her memory in order to dissociate - even on a weekly basis or more often). <br /><br />ECT didn't seem to cause harm, but it didn't really seem to help either.manchester fat acceptance https://www.blogger.com/profile/11207482764987668705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-65390060168734408002011-02-11T07:05:43.103-05:002011-02-11T07:05:43.103-05:00I have chronic, treatment-resistant major depressi...I have chronic, treatment-resistant major depression, first appearing about age 7. I am currently on a drug cocktail including parnate, an MAOI (remember that drug, Shrinkrappers?) as a last resort class after trying every other antidepressant drug class. FYI, I live in Australia. 10 years ago, I'd just completed my PhD and was about to start a research career. 6 years ago, I was desperately depressed and suicidal. Since then, I've had about 100 ECT treatments, the most recent course of about 25 from Dec '09 through May '10. ECT has saved my life, but cost me my self and I often struggle with the loss of who I thought I was. I thought I was an intellectual, an award-winning scientist, a researcher. Over the last 6 years, the treatments (or perhaps the illness?) have cost me my cognitive skills to the point that my boss pulled me into his office and told me he couldn't pay me a researcher's rate any longer because "you just can't think the way I need you to think any more". That was devastating. I have lost so many memories that I often am unaware that I haven't remembered something significant that everyone else in the family thinks I should. My research career is over - I can only recall the outline of my PhD research. I have difficulty laying down new memories - my kids are used to me saying "sorry, you know mum has a stuffed-up memory". Would I have ECT again? Reluctantly, yes. The last time I had a significant breakdown my kids were present and their devastation at the prospect that they might never see me again was the only thing that stopped me from acting on my desire to die. If DBS was available in Australia for depression, I would stick my hand up straight away. I am a mere shadow of the person I used to be, but my kids say they love and need me, even if I don't value my life myself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-17882356637469057912011-02-11T03:13:43.567-05:002011-02-11T03:13:43.567-05:00Hi Sunny,
As an FYI, I quoted you about memory an...Hi Sunny,<br /><br />As an FYI, I quoted you about memory and meant to say I agree with you. Sorry, insomnia was at work.<br /><br />Like you, I am not depressed in the least but dealing with memory loss while on psych meds and then in withdrawing from them, was one of the scariest issues I have ever dealt with. <br /><br />At a previous job, one time I asked a boss about a procedure that I had literally forgotten how to do. It was so elementary. He was very kind but I can't tell you how embarrassed I was.<br /><br />What was scary was I didn't realize this was something I should know how to do and figure out without asking him.<br /><br />Multiply this several times over at at a worst intensity which is what many ECT folks deal with and I would reach the same conclusions about wanting to die.<br /><br />You have done a great job in summarizing the issue. Great analogy about comparing ECT to cutting off the feet of people who complain about foot pain. <br /><br />That is a good question about the woman being forced to have outpatient ECT as to why she can't move. <br /><br />I was one of those folks who definitely felt better quitting psych meds. I didn't have treatment resistant depression but the horrific side effects led me to this decision. Things aren't back to being 100% but making this move was one of the best decisions I have made in my life.<br /><br />Movie Doc, you never mention supplements as alternatives and I am curious as to why. Yesterday, when I was researching things for insomnia, I was amazed at all the reviews of people on 5htp who claimed that drugs did nothing for their depression but that this was magical.<br /><br />Of course, anecdotal experiences do not make for a study. But to be honest, I don't exactly see great studies for ECT and the options you are mentioning.<br /><br />As an FYI, there was a recent study that showed that sAME was a possible effective alternative. Also, various studies have shown that high EPA fish oil has helped some people with depression.<br /><br />I also recall a small study in which for people experiencing treatment resistant depression found relief when high EPA fish oil was added to Prozac.<br /><br />By the way, I don't think supplements are the magical solution that some alternative med folks think they are. But I am just stunned that these options aren't considered by more mainstream medical professionals<br /><br />One thing that I found impressive about an out of state psychiatrist I wanted to consult with when my insomnia was at its worst was he seemed to be very knowledgeable about conventional and alternative approaches. Fortunately, it didn't get to that point where I felt the need to go see him.<br /><br />As far as ECT giving hope to people, I don't doubt what you are saying. But I guess I am having trouble reconciling that with Sunny's post about memory loss.<br /><br />Would that journalist who lost his ability to write following ECT still say that it gave him hope? <br /><br />AA<br /><br />PS - I wanted to thank the shrink rappers for allowing dissenting viewpoints and letting comments get posted right away. It is greatly appreciated.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-79791962993266029642011-02-10T23:55:30.631-05:002011-02-10T23:55:30.631-05:00A few more facts about ECT: There are TWO kinds of...A few more facts about ECT: There are TWO kinds of memory loss. The patient may never remember much about what happened during the time they were treated. Usually this is not a big problem. More disturbing would be an inability to recall events from prior to treatment or to "lay down" new memories after treatment. <br /><br />The most dangerous part of ECT as currently practiced may probably still be the general anesthesia. The treatments are relatively safe.<br /><br />ECT represents hope for those who cannot tolerate meds or for whom meds and psychotherapy do not work. Then there's rTMS and VNS.moviedochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03617061594621924756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-77238804460863411732011-02-10T23:17:38.081-05:002011-02-10T23:17:38.081-05:00I had some number of ECT treatments. Maybe 8 or s...I had some number of ECT treatments. Maybe 8 or so. Don't know because my memory loss became too severe and the series ended early (or so I was told later). My psychiatrist called the memory loss "moderate" and "more than we like to see". Six months later I felt my brain was working again, but in its usual depressive fashion. A year later, I gave myself a seizure as a side effect of a suicide attempt -- and you know, I felt pretty good (but quite delerious) afterwards. <br /><br />My point? Seizures help. The experience of being so "out of it" -- I remember struggling to dial a phone -- is itself traumatic, even if you bounce back in 6 months or so. Second, the effects might well be short-lived. I honestly don't know if I'd do it again, but feel more motivated than ever not to have to consider it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-19074502377752191722011-02-10T23:03:52.260-05:002011-02-10T23:03:52.260-05:00Anonymous:
Yes, I said:
"I would rather die...Anonymous:<br /><br />Yes, I said:<br /><br />"I would rather die than lose that much of my memory."<br />http://www.shockmd.com/2009/10/22/ect-update-a-year-later.<br /><br />I would like to add that I am not depressed, and do not say that out of depression, but because I consider part of my essence to be my sharp mind and stored memories of loved ones and my life's history. I think when we lose our memories we lose who we are. It reminds me of one of those awful science fiction movies where the hero is having his mind altered by the aliens. I DO think there can be a profit motive on the part of the clinicians which makes it alarming to me that the very same psychiatrist who can declare a psychiatric inpatient too ill to release can order ECT against the patient's will as well.<br />When I listen to or read some of the stories and hear the ECT patient describe having been on lots of different medications and all those medications not doing any good, I wonder if they might have felt better just by quitting the psyche drugs and taking a vacation in a lakeside cabin with good food and long walks. There was a New York Times first person account by a former journalist who had lost his ability to report and write following ECT. Watch the series of Rachel Star's videos on her website and form your own opinion. I found a mid-1980's study of autopsy's of brains of people who died either during ECT or shortly thereafter in which all the brain damage was detailed by neurologists. The brain damage is not imaginary, it is being covered up.<br /><br />Anonymous, why can't the woman who is being required to have ECT as an outpatient just leave the state?<br /><br />I do not understand a medical community that thinks it is OK to wipe out huge areas of people's memory by destroying parts of their brain. How is this any measure of successful treatment? It is like cutting off the feet of people who complain of foot pain. So what if they no long can walk? Their feet are no longer a problem.Sunny CAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11451116932556227816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-40676922327976661372011-02-10T22:25:42.605-05:002011-02-10T22:25:42.605-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Judith Kastenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06004159861172138970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-35580496306424701322011-02-10T15:54:33.290-05:002011-02-10T15:54:33.290-05:00A good link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFk0Y...A good link:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFk0Y1xGIuo<br /><br /><br />Cut and paste into your browser. This corrects the Anon Link 2 posts above.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-45123831580443037282011-02-10T15:22:57.462-05:002011-02-10T15:22:57.462-05:00Sunny, Mind Freedom is fighting for someone who is...Sunny, Mind Freedom is fighting for someone who is being forced to undergo outpatient ECT in Minnesota against her will. Thanks to their efforts, Ray Sanford, another Minnesota resident was freed from the court order to have involuntary outpatient ECT. To be blunt, I feel that forcing someone to have ECT against their will is torture.<br /><br />You also said, <br /><br />"I would rather die than lose that much of my memory.<br />http://www.shockmd.com/2009/10/22/ect-update-a-year-later"<br /><br />To address Dinah's points - I am too lazy to look up the research but if I remember correctly, high effectiveness rate does not last very long. <br /><br />When you say that memory loss is often mild, on what scientific study are you basing that on? Also, how is that tested and for how long?<br /><br />If I remember correctly, Harold Sakeim after initially admitting that memory loss was non existent with ECT, admitted it was alot worse than he initially thought. In my opinion, he was still underplaying it.<br /><br />You might want to ask the woman who had no trouble reading a novel during a hospital ECT stay if she could follow the plot a year from now as an FYI.<br /><br />AAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com