tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post6134732334651190740..comments2024-03-18T03:28:36.581-04:00Comments on Shrink Rap: The Emancipated PatientUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger96125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-75081966297169842522013-06-14T16:49:25.485-04:002013-06-14T16:49:25.485-04:00Since Roe v Wade I would think many women would no...Since Roe v Wade I would think many women would not even think to use coat hangers or other unsafe means to abort. No one actually likes abortion, but it does make things more safe when it's legal.stylesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-48106474626184628412013-06-14T16:47:19.178-04:002013-06-14T16:47:19.178-04:00I agree with mctps that if there was euthanasia av...I agree with mctps that if there was euthanasia available for people who are suicidal they would not be attempting to jump in front of trains or off of bridges. If they are too psychotic to understand why they shouldn't do that, then forced care would become necessary.<br /><br />Also, thank you Dinah for responding with the statistics about the Gloden Gate bridge. That is interesting that many of them (survivors and attemtees) did not eventually die of suicide.stylesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-66238050108741628332013-06-14T09:56:44.626-04:002013-06-14T09:56:44.626-04:00I think that I'm the last anon that jcat refer...I think that I'm the last anon that jcat referred to. I probably do have problems with empathy, but I also think that I must be expressing myself very badly right now. I didn't mean for anything that I wrote to sound cruel or unempathic to anyone who is suffering right now, and I'm sorry if anything I said sounded cruel or unempathic. <br /><br />On the other hand, I was thinking right now that probably I am not doing a good job of pretending that I am in Dinah's living room right now. If I was in Dinah's living room right now I would not be saying these things. <br /><br />It is sometimes easy to become so self-absorbed and wrapped up in your own problems that you fail to understand the effect that this has on other people. I am probably not doing a very good job right now of seeing things outside of me.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-2293431113671921192013-06-14T09:18:44.055-04:002013-06-14T09:18:44.055-04:00Dinah:
I've alluded to the idea before a few...Dinah: <br /><br />I've alluded to the idea before a few times that if society made suicide easy, these dangerous and problematic scenarios would disappear. Until then, I think it's reasonable to intervene and forcibly treat for several months, but IMO not longer than that against will.<br /><br />I also believe many mass murders would be prevented if suicide were made easy, especially if this were combined with a sane media treatment of such cases: no name or picture of the killer published, ever, no names or pictures or ages of the victims published, very brief and dry matter-of-fact reporting of the event in news.mctpsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-14573118923717397892013-06-14T01:12:32.698-04:002013-06-14T01:12:32.698-04:00I still want to know -- if there are psychiatric a...I still want to know -- if there are psychiatric advance directives that are binding no matter what-- what we do with the woman on the railroad tracks, or the person about to jump from a building into a crowded street. We can't just leave them, because others are at risk, so even if we say No Forced Treatment, it doesn't mean it's fine to derail a train, traumatize an engineer, splatter yourself on innocent bystanders who might swerve to avoid you or be killed by your falling body. So we remove the person, but what do we do then. No forced treatment. If we let go, they move back onto the tracks or to the edge of the building. So where do we remove them to? Jail? Charged with reckless endangerment? We don't think it's already a travesty that much of mental health care is now delivered in the criminal justice system, that the largest psychiatric institution in the country is a wing of the LA County Jail, the Twin Towers? <br />With an enforceable psychiatric advanced directive, it's a not a free pass to endanger others, or even to disturb the peace. I'm not sure I understand how this plays out. <br /><br />"a permanent solution to a temporary problem" ....okay, granted, for some of the people some of the time, but you don't know if that's the case for you until the moment of death. I tend towards optimism and hopefulness, but life certainly has it's rough patches, and mental illness or not, no one got born with a guarantee that they wouldn't suffer. It does seem to be part of the journey.<br />Dinahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09227988351623862689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-85890073912133733832013-06-14T00:41:36.168-04:002013-06-14T00:41:36.168-04:00@mctps, last anon - you really are completely lack...@mctps, last anon - you really are completely lacking in empathy, aren't you.<br /><br />Enough already.jcathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03736961961261409218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-15410083946715830292013-06-14T00:20:53.871-04:002013-06-14T00:20:53.871-04:00Re: the idea that "suicide is a permanent sol...Re: the idea that "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem". <br /><br />I have been thinking about this idea of help negation when it comes to suicide. I'm sure that there are many different reasons why people do not talk to people about this. Most of the time I feel extremely desperate to talk to someone about this because I am trying to think my way through this, but any available resource that I can think of right now seems like it would make this worse, for several reasons.<br /><br />One of these reasons is this idea that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Whenever I read descriptions (in the media, even in textbooks when I was in school) suicidal thoughts are depicted in a way that I just don't relate to. People are either depicted as having acute mental health problems that are obviously a change from the usual, and these suicidal thoughts are obviously a temporary symptom that resolves when the acute mental health problem gets better. Or else it seems that suicide is presented in a very irrational way, because of felling upset over a break-up, etc. It is presented as obviously irrational, a sign of bad coping, etc.<br /><br />I feel that most depictions in the media of these thoughts do not do justice to these thoughts. I do not have the sense that clinicians understand this experience, or that they truly could provide help with this, because I think that they view these thoughts as irrational and as evidence of bad coping.<br /><br />I wonder if part of the problem is that there is not enough recognition that often things simply can't be fixed, problems aren't temporary, there is no treatment or intervention that is really going to change very much. <br />Similarly, for all of the talk about miraculous cures for psychiatric disorders, I don't really see that this is necessarily true either. I think that it makes me feel worse to constantly hear about how fixable everything is, how treatable everything is, when in fact I think even many psychiatrists would acknowledge that the type of change that is possible is for many people not particularly overwhelming. <br /><br />I do understand that it's possible to adopt the attitude that no matter what, you can't kill yourself because of the hurt it would cause other people. But this is a different argument from the one that says that things are fixable. I would be much more likely to feel heard by someone who acknowledged that in fact there is good reason for me to feel hopeless right now, that many people would probably feel just as hopeless as I do, that this problem is not clear-cut, etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-60056517594310464352013-06-13T18:42:28.836-04:002013-06-13T18:42:28.836-04:00I think what people who are used to happiness tend...I think what people who are used to happiness tend to have a hard time realising is that life for a lot of people is typically nothing to write home about, even when they're not going through a suicidal period or aren't badly depressed. <br /><br />This means that a couple of really bad years are difficult to redeem; the balance of whether your life as a whole has been worth living or not has forever shifted toward the negative.<br /><br />There are a few things that could redeem hellish months or years: romantic love fulfilled, a series of great artistic creations completed, having and managing to raise happy and wonderful children who go on to live successful lives, discovering the philosopher's stone, conquering the world with your manly robot armies while sipping coke in the hidden control room, learning to teleport and becoming the world's most fearsome jewel thief.<br /><br />Thing is, those deeds are generally speaking difficult to pull off (I've tried them all, CIA knows me) and they are beyond the means of most ordinary men. So, if we happen to off ourselves when we're having a bad year, it's not such a great tragedy, trust me. We'd die some day either way....isn't that the fate of all men? I'm personally not immortal, at any rate. If somebody told my parents that I would be, they lied. <br /><br />It's not about when you die. It's about how you lived and can live.<br /><br />Death is beautiful and merciful unless it involves your intestines painting postmodern art on the sidewalk or really anywhere. That's why I support euthanasia.<br /><br />While I joke about this topic now, I expect there to be a day ... when I'm old, tired, in pain and alone ... when I'd appreciate a humane and quick end to my life.mctpsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-33253183004510582232013-06-12T21:53:32.420-04:002013-06-12T21:53:32.420-04:00The issue of what happens to those who make a seri...The issue of what happens to those who make a serious suicide attempt and live is an interesting one. Of those who survive jumping off the Golden Gate bridge -- <br /><br />"Of 515 people who had been prevented from jumping off the Golden Gate bridge, only 25 (5%) went on to kill themselves later. Of eight known survivors in 1975, one subsequently killed himself." Dinahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09227988351623862689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-21412897625421605242013-06-12T18:14:54.430-04:002013-06-12T18:14:54.430-04:00A few misconceptions I would like to point out:
1...A few misconceptions I would like to point out:<br /><br />1) " we don't hospitalize people for 'thought'." <br /><br />Perhaps 'you' don't, but others certainly do. It happened to me. For thoughts, not intent, while asking for help with those thoughts.<br /><br />2) "People can get help with suicidal thoughts"<br /><br />Sometimes that "help" is no help at all. It did me no good, I still have those thoughts, despite the best efforts of "help". Help that is no help, that comes at such a high cost - well, that forces one to consider their options rather carefully, doesn't it?<br /><br />3) "A permanent solution to a temporary problem."<br /><br />I hate this statement with a passion; because sometimes the problem is not temporary. In my case, I've been dealing with it for more years that I care to recount. Hell, I was told that I would be on medications for this <br />for the rest of my life. That's temporary? <br /><br />4) "the system 'allows' you to kill yourself."<br /><br />The "system" does not, it has laws designed to prevent it - such as involuntary hospitalization - although the laws in place are fairly ineffectual if one is really determined. Otherwise, you could announce your intention without any sort of intervention, but that's clearly not the case. <br />The real issue, however, is not "allows", but punishes. The "system" punishes an individual for either announcing intent or actually attempting, and failing at, suicide. The argument for the "right" to suicide is actually the argument against measures designed to interfere or punish. If you want help, you should by all means be free to ask for it, sans the fear of reprisals. If you do not, however, you should not suffer consequences devised by the well-meaning but myopic. Stigma, loss of freedom, loss of rights, financial burden; these are just some of the punishing consequences of the "help" you are likely to receive. As I said before, in the end, the cost of "help" is frequently to exorbitant a cost to pay. Je suisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-955847056396263762013-06-12T16:14:48.786-04:002013-06-12T16:14:48.786-04:00Sunny's comment about the golden gate bridge a...Sunny's comment about the golden gate bridge and geography is actually why I don't like discussing the intent of people who have passed on. It's easy to think that those people jumped facing the city for some romantic reason, maybe one last goodby to the city and people they loved. Or it could have just been the most convenient area to jump from if they are coming from San Francisco. Unless they actually stated that they were jumping on the San Francisco side so they could feel some connection to people before they died we really can't know. <br /><br />But even suicide notes and past diary entries leave me feeling uncomfortable trying to speculate anything about the dead. Notes can be unclear or written hapahazardly. I have a diary and it if anyone were to read it after I die they would probably think I had a thought disorder. It's practically incoherent with the junk that comes out of my mind. There are people who write diaries with the idea that someone will someday read it (and even those are slanted because you are only reading how they wished to portray themselves to others). And then there are those who do not plan on people reading their diaries. They just want to get their thoughts out, no matter how bizarre, and they are nothing like their diary presentations of themselves in reality. This is actually making me want to leave a directive advising my family to burn all my diaries upon death.<br /><br />I a much more curious about the people who survived and can talk with clarity why they did what they did. The dead should be left alone, because they aren't here anymore to explain themselves. Their diaries and notes are not them.<br /><br />Also there is physician assisted suicide for the mentally ill. The commenter earlier brought this up when his 20 year old friend was put on palliative care for anorexia as she starved herself to death. It unnerves me that someone that young was encouraged to starve herself to death, and I do hope that many people, including psychiatrists, reached out to her and helped her explore options.<br /><br />Anyhow, here is an article about physician assisted suicide in Switzerland for the mentall ill.<br />http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/557817<br /><br />stylesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-65195266315757477512013-06-12T05:34:04.834-04:002013-06-12T05:34:04.834-04:00I think there's been a misunderstanding or two...I think there's been a misunderstanding or two here.<br /><br />I'm not suicidal now, and I'm often glad to be alive. My argumentation is solely based on empathy, you know, genuine understanding of one type of suicidal person arising from personal experience of having been one.<br /><br />No one I know believes in any sort of otherworldly hell, so Catholic funerals are kind of off-topic where I live. Europe more generally isn't much of a Christian place except nominally these days. I know it's different in the States, but even there Catholicism is a minority religion and in general I doubt Christians these days actually believe hell to be anything more than separation from God. C.S. Lewis said the doors of hell are locked from the inside: people who go, want to be there, and anyone who doesn't belong, won't go.<br /><br />Sunny CA wrote: "Regarding physician assisted suicide for mentally ill, there is not one physician on the planet that would be willing to do that, unless they were warped in some way themselves."<br /><br />There is also not one priest that would do it. That doesn't make the hypothetical act irrational, rather the opposite. This total refusal reveals a commonality, perhaps a common origin, a clue that this refusal to end pain has its origins in something irrational, that it can't be philosophically (rigorously) justified without referring to myth and mumbo jumbo, except in some cases where the suicidal intent isn't the result of longterm suffering. That's why I've suggested waiting periods for euthanasia.<br /><br />And I'm not actually demanding physician assisted suicide. I don't care what the doctors do. They may do what they want and what they've been trained to do. There are other humans on this planet who reportedly are capable of pressing a button or overseeing an execution style euthanasia. It's not rocket science. Your inability to see these obvious and reasonable possibilities, such as using executioners for the job, points to irrational fixations on your part.<br /><br />To the person who said he/she already knows an effective way to suicide: perhaps you do, perhaps you only think you do. Most suicide attempts fail. That's not because the attempt was "a gesture" or some silly nonsense like that. It's because humans are arrogant and stupid and don't even know what they don't know. There are virtually no effective and risk-free ways that aren't either very messy, cruel and/or painful. Inhumane in a word.<br /><br />Empathy, is the point of view from which I write this. Not desire to die or to disturb. If empathy disturbs you, then it's perhaps you who has been warped, by "training" or other brainwashing or mind control.mctpsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-7913217514441312762013-06-12T00:32:07.802-04:002013-06-12T00:32:07.802-04:00Dinah, I'm really sorry for your loss.
Thinkin...Dinah, I'm really sorry for your loss.<br />Thinking of you and sending strength and healing.jcathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03736961961261409218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-24575669872022233282013-06-12T00:15:37.027-04:002013-06-12T00:15:37.027-04:00Please be careful with all this advice. Many peop...Please be careful with all this advice. Many people have been saved by forced hospitalization. You guys who are blogging should be versed enough to know what not to say to get hospitalized. If not, maybe it's necessary.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-18997239938158786922013-06-12T00:08:54.153-04:002013-06-12T00:08:54.153-04:00Dinah,
I can't imagine the grief in losing a ...Dinah,<br /><br />I can't imagine the grief in losing a sibling. I'm sorry for your loss.<br /><br />Pseudo kristenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-62348641023926299312013-06-11T23:52:04.849-04:002013-06-11T23:52:04.849-04:00Jesse, you said no one responded. I did respond. ...Jesse, you said no one responded. I did respond. I support an enforceable advance directive. Those who were helped by forced treatment wouldn't have to fill out anything and what happens would depend upon the practitioner's decision of what is best. Those who were not helped could opt out, as could those who were never forcibly treated but wouldn't want it. This would require a change in law to ensure the advance directive could not be ignored by a psychiatrist in case of emergency which is is what can happen in my state currently. I don't see the need for a zip drive if I could have an enforceable psych advance directive to carry with me.<br /><br />Pseudo kristenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-87682306179078634312013-06-11T23:23:15.085-04:002013-06-11T23:23:15.085-04:00Dinah, I am sorry for the loss of your brother. I ...Dinah, I am sorry for the loss of your brother. I am the previous anon poster. As someone who was thinking very suicidaly after a bad trip on an ssri and various life misfortunes I want to speak out. I felt as many of the previous posters did until my five year old came into my room one day and said " real moms don't sleep all day". I dragged myself out of bed every day, got a very part time job (2 hours a day) and kept a mood chart. I hated every minute of it. But as time went by (. A year maybe) I started feeling normal again. I would never have thought this was possible. It took lots of hard work, meds, and not giving up. Thank god I have kids to not disappoint. My point is, there is hope. Sometimes you have to live the life you want until you want it. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-63534411087898694382013-06-11T23:15:28.567-04:002013-06-11T23:15:28.567-04:00This has been a very hard week for Dinah, and this...This has been a very hard week for Dinah, and this entire topic is most disturbing to most of us. All of us know people who have suicided, but while death from any cause can be wrenching suicide is particularly so. <br /><br />I was wrong when I wrote that no one responded to my question: Sarebear did, and suggested that if a person appears voluntarily as a patient in an ER then forced hospitalization should not be allowed.jessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11077223398907532291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-87174987256189170342013-06-11T22:49:03.124-04:002013-06-11T22:49:03.124-04:00I, too, have found this whole line of commenting t...I, too, have found this whole line of commenting to be terribly disturbing. In the past few weeks, I know of 4 people who have completed suicides, 2 were patients of psychiatrist friends, 1 was a relative's colleague who was running a scam that came to an end, and the last was a friend's fiance who left a note blaming my friend. 40,000 people a year 'succeed' in committing suicide and it's horribly sad for those who remain, and tragic for those who die, whose pain may have remitted and let them move on to a full and good life. A permanent solution to a temporary problem. There is nothing that stopped those 40,000 people, the system 'allows' you to kill yourself.<br /><br />People can get help with suicidal thoughts, they are part of depression and psychiatrists hear about them every day, we don't hospitalize people for 'thoughts.' It's when those thoughts become intent or when the patient is an unknown entity that there is the 'risk' of being hospitalized. The vast majority of people who got to an ER who are actively suicidal want to be voluntarily hospitalized, some of them get turned away because there are no available beds or their insurance companies won't cover it. Most of the hospitals I've worked in have had suicides on the unit, including one person who hung himself in the hallway of a psych unit. <br /><br />I agree that lucid, reality-based depressed people should not be forcibly hospitalized and I agree that ALL patients should be treated kindly and respectfully.<br /><br />In the time we've been discussing this, I lost my brother completely unexpectedly. He took very good care of himself, trying not to die of the heart disease that caused our father to die. Going through the pain of having my brother die while so many here have bickered about how they should be allowed to kill themselves, or even have doctors help them, has been very hard.<br /><br />Dinahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09227988351623862689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-6733180719641146432013-06-11T22:37:03.997-04:002013-06-11T22:37:03.997-04:00What I was saying using the bridge as a point (and...What I was saying using the bridge as a point (and I did not make that up, I read it. It was written by someone who was relating the facts of which side of the bridge is used more) is that even when people do try to commit, or do commit, suicide there is often evidence that they were trying to connect with others at that moment, not be distant from them. <br /><br />@Pseudo Kristen, yes, I do hear you. There are a number of people on this blog who were hurt by forced treatment, and it should be clear that the doctors here are listeners, not forcers, who have worked for years with very depressed patients who spoke often of suicide, never did it, and were helped by treatment. So I believe that the force did harm.<br /><br />Of course you should have the right to the kind of treatment that is best for you, but none of us can predict what all of the various practioners/social workers/family members/ first responders et al would do in every circumstance. So I asked for ideas on how a law could be written to better serve patients like you. No one responded. Is there a way to craft the lawso that it would better serve patients who would do better not to be forced, while allowing hospitalization (instead of jail) in other cases?<br /><br />One practical suggestion would be to have on a zip drive (a little key-like thing you can always have available) relevant medical information including a description of the best way to treat you in a psychiatric emergency, what worked and did not, and answering all questions necessary so that your experience could be heeded.jessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11077223398907532291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-13447367243261307432013-06-11T22:28:58.580-04:002013-06-11T22:28:58.580-04:00Sunny CA seems to make one of the most sensible ar...Sunny CA seems to make one of the most sensible arguments here. However, I have found this thread to be the most disturbing, sad, unfortunate blog I have ever read. I feel badly that many of you wish you were dead, wish you had the right to die etc. it seems that there must be some kind of help out there. Having been on the brink myself I am aware that there is bad care and good care. Forced hospitalization for reality based depressed people is unwarranted but you found yourself in brutal hands. I wish you all the best of luck and hope and hope you find something to make life worthwhile. Maybe a new blog idea would be what spurred depressed suicidal people out of their funks , besides medicine, and gave them hope to live?? I would read that book!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-90377012969730754512013-06-11T20:00:15.540-04:002013-06-11T20:00:15.540-04:00I am a patient, and I previously have said on this...I am a patient, and I previously have said on this blog, that I would rather die, than again be involuntarily hospitalized.<br /><br />I am not certain that is true, because I have had many good years post hospitalization, but I would certainly attempt almost any solution short of death to prevent re-hospitalization.<br /><br />In actual practice, many force-hospitalized patients would end up in jail if not force-hospitalized, and that can't be any fun either. Others would end up dead, and while I believe in personal mental health freedom, I would not want a loved one of mine to suicide.<br /><br />Regarding physician assisted suicide for mentally ill, there is not one physician on the planet that would be willing to do that, unless they were warped in some way themselves. <br /><br />If I were a psychiatrist presented with a suicidal patient I would try to assess how close to the brink the patient is, and what could be done, short of forced hospitalization, such as medication change or alerting family with permission of the patient.<br /><br />As a patient who voluntarily appeared at the emergency room, but who was involuntarily committed, I think there should be a law against that. If a patient arrives voluntarily and asks for help, they should not be involuntarily committed, then, against their will, prevented from leaving, with all the loss of rights and future privileges that involves.<br /><br />Also, all mental patients ought to be treated with the respect and kindness that is granted automatically to any adult or juvenile medical patient, but not to mental patients.Sunny CAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11451116932556227816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-15990504859918022052013-06-11T19:48:34.069-04:002013-06-11T19:48:34.069-04:00Jesse: The side of the Golden Gate Bridge facing t...Jesse: The side of the Golden Gate Bridge facing the city of San Francisco is the side you are automatically on if you are coming from San Francisco where most of the people are located. Purely on a basis of which community people live, there would be a lot more living in San Francisco that would access it from the "viewing San Francisco" side, so your reasoning does not ring true for me. On the Marin side nobody lives close enough to walk to the Golden Gate bridge. Look at it on Google maps, satellite version. I think yours is a psychological explanation, when a much simpler geographical explanation exists.Sunny CAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11451116932556227816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-13517958339675202682013-06-11T18:48:26.063-04:002013-06-11T18:48:26.063-04:00Jesse, I don't know that people are asking for...Jesse, I don't know that people are asking for the right to suicide. The people by and large who would like to sign an advance directive stating no forced intervention are the ones who not only were not saved by forced intervention, they were harmed by it. I am not requesting the right to suicide. I already know how to do it effectively. I am asking for the right to reject a treatment that for me makes a bad situation worse. There's a difference.<br /><br />Pseudo kristenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-37082011135845972412013-06-11T16:41:19.163-04:002013-06-11T16:41:19.163-04:00@jcat: I'm completely with you, in your last a...@jcat: I'm completely with you, in your last and earlier comment on this thread. There was a man who jumped onto a subway track in NYC a short time ago and the train engineer had a very severe reaction. Almost always there are others who suffer in ways not foreseen nor seriously considered by the person who suicides. <br /><br />I think those who are writing here for the right to be able to suicide, to be left alone, are arguing for a theoretical idea, for a right they wish to have, as they have not, in fact, suicided.<br /><br />The wish to connect with others is almost always there. Those who have jumped from the Golden Gate Bridge almost always did so facing the city, not away from it.jessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11077223398907532291noreply@blogger.com